Unpopular opinion time

Cosmas-the-Explorer

Explorer in Training

Some people say bronies had too much influence on the later seasons of g4, but I think one needs to ask if the writers were tryimg to appeal to bronies or rather bronies were an attrmpt to themselves.

Let’s face it writers didn’t make that DBZ tirek scene just for bronies. They probably made it because that’s the stuff they enjoyed.

People forget writers dont just write for their audiences. They write what they find cool.

Could Faust have made Rainbow a girly pony like in the show? Yeah, but it’s not what she wanted. MA Larson didn’t have to have Star Trek references but he did it because he thought they were cool.

Posted 15 days ago Report

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TheQuietMan

House of the Arcana

@Cosmas-the-Explorer
And honestly, do we really “know our characters”? They’re pieces of ink. They’re always a blank slate. I don’t see “OOC” moments as what they are, just a hidden side we didn’t know about.

Posted 15 days ago Report

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DerpyFast

@Background Pony #F622

only to cave into the demand of the rabid Luna fans and shove her into everything

Celestia made more appearances than Luna did.

@Cosmas-the-Explorer
Plus, they made the show first, then we started watching.

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Latecomer

@DerpyFast
I guess between her age, her power, her significance to the nation and even her sheer size, she’s literally “larger than life” and hard to relate to? (Metaphorically, she’s the parents and teachers of the child audience rolled into one, and what kid sees them as relatable peers?)

@Background Pony #F622
To be fair, Celestia seems to be the one who mostly makes the decisions. So criticism of those decisions (or the state of Equestrian society, which Luna was not really in much position to influence lately) becomes criticisms of Celestia.

@Twi Clown
Hmm… I can certainly buy her feeling a need to always put up a strong front, and yet that also feels like a teachable, friendship-lesson moment missed out on.

Posted 15 days ago Report

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Mr.Myoozik

Music/Charts Enthusiast

@Twi Clown
All of those are what makes her a compelling character and why she has a lot of fans who hype her out even if I personally see her as whatever.

@DerpyFast
I mean why do salmon flow upstream? Why is space infinite? Sometimes things are the way they are without having to provide a college grade paper explaining why people like or dislike things.

When I say “overrated”, I don’t mean it in an elitist manner, it’s just a preference thing. Obviously you can see and understand why something is popular and why people like it, and it’s normal to question and wonder why it’s popular when it doesn’t click or connect with it. I agree that calling it that and leaving it as such doesn’t cut it. There is such a thing as being overly popular and overexposed, and I think it’s fine to say that as long as you don’t shame others for it so I don’t fully agree with that take from the 4Chan user.

About this discourse, I don’t care much for Luna myself, I don’t see her as cute or charming. I’ve seen the show, I know about the growth she’s had as a character and why she resonates a lot with people, more power to them of course. I think Celestia is okay, it’s a shame that she didn’t get that much development but from what we did get eventually, I found it amusing and funny.

@Cosmas-the-Explorer
Personally, I would say more the latter.

Posted 14 days ago Report

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DerpyFast

Not unpopular opinion:

When I say “overrated”, I don’t mean it in an elitist manner, it’s just a preference thing. Obviously you can see and understand why something is popular and why people like it, and it’s normal to question and wonder why it’s popular when it doesn’t click or connect with it. I agree that calling it that and leaving it as such doesn’t cut it. There is such a thing as being overly popular and overexposed, and I think it’s fine to say that as long as you don’t shame others for it

The problem is that even if you don’t intend it, the elitism is built directly into the word.

Posted 14 days ago Report

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Cosmas-the-Explorer

Explorer in Training

@DerpyFast
I’ll admit seeing you dislike character I like is hard to swallow especially since I usually see you as an authority.

But that being said, I so wish she was written better. Same for so many other aspects of the show.

I guess I personally look past things Celestia does like bad planning as just something to deal with.
But I think one thing the show didn’t do well enough is try to have Celestia pick a lane and define who she was.

Is she a very powerful or is she simply a wise ruler? Perhaps give her better plans.

I assume Celestia was just written in the background as someone to propel Twilight. You might find Luna better because by her very nature she has to be focused on and delved into as she’s a side character not a main part.

Posted 14 days ago Report
Edited 14 days ago

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CloudMistDragon

Misty Shadow

@TheQuietMan
It’s also annoying how so many fans seem to think they know the characters better than the writers. Criticizing something as an “OOC moment” can be valid, but a lot of times, characters in the show get criticized for things they have done because of a side to them they’ve always had.

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Mr.Myoozik

Music/Charts Enthusiast

@DerpyFast
Well when I say it, I never intend it to come off in that way or to demean those who do like what’s being criticized. That is unless there is a better term to describe something that’s popular or beloved but you don’t see what’s the big deal and becomes overhyped.

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DerpyFast

@Cosmas-the-Explorer
I don’t actually dislike Celestia. It’s just that I watched Season Four recently and this is something I need to get out of my system.

The second-to-last stone to pass has to do with Misty Brightdawn. Misty and Twilight both have an alicorn mentor that they complete tasks for. But Misty’s relationship with Opaline was revealed to be abusive, and she had an entire arc about becoming disillusioned and working up the courage to leave. Celestia made a series of bad decisions that cost Twilight her home, and nearly led to the end of the world, and this didn’t affect Twilight’s opinion of her at all.

The final stone to pass has to do with Luna’s redemption arc. Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep is probably my favourite episode in the entire show. This is the emotional climax to Luna’s redemption arc; 1,000 years in the making. Celestia is the one character Luna would actually need to make things right with. And Celestia wasn’t developed enough as a character to meaningfully include in this emotional climax we had been waiting for since the start of the show.

And that’s it. I’m done complaining about Celestia.

That is unless there is a better term to describe something that’s popular or beloved but you don’t see what’s the big deal and becomes overhyped.

“Not really my thing.”

Posted 14 days ago Report

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Latecomer

@DerpyFast
I do actually think that DPDOMS was busy enough already without mixing Celestia in too. (And really, Luna already had her forgiveness - it was her own she needed.)

But yeah, part of the problem with Celestia’s treatment of Twilight is that neither Twilight nor the narrative voice ever objects.

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Background Pony #F622

Well I guess Luna is just “not really my thing” then. Still dislike her fanbase though

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Cosmas-the-Explorer

Explorer in Training

@DerpyFast
I see. I really do appreciate your analysis of Celestia. If I ever make a fanfiction of mlp, I do want to give more emphasis to Celestia and Luna’s relationship. There’s so much untapped potential between them.

@Latecomer
Twilight and Celestia having more relationship moments. Even conflicts would be really nice to have had.

Posted 14 days ago Report

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DragonBoi471

*Durgon Noises*

Sheesh, all this talk about the word “overrated” being associated with elitism just reeks of Slippery Slope Fallacy to me. And if there’s one thing I learned from 2010’s internet research it’s never trust arguments that rely on logical fallacies.

BTW, “Not really my thing.” sounds way to cliche to me.

Posted 14 days ago Report

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DerpyFast

@Latecomer
So, I really do want to re-emphasize that I think Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep represents the absolute peak of the show. But in the back of my mind, I know that the moment of forgiveness should have come from Celestia, since Luna’s betrayal was the inciting incident for the whole show. And that The Tantabus and DPDOMS itself only exist because Luna’s arc wouldn’t have an emotional climax otherwise. And while I think the episode is the pinnacle of “making it work”, it’s really ironic that the biggest criticism you can direct at Luna’s arc stems from them not developing Celestia enough.

Anyways, that’s partly why I think Misty Brightdawn had a better arc than Luna.

Posted 13 days ago Report

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Latecomer

@DerpyFast
Well, I still disagree - Celestia forgave Luna all the way back in the second episode. It was Luna who had to forgive Luna.

Posted 13 days ago Report

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Dragonpone

Moderator

Badge Dragon

@DerpyFast
If we’re giving Celestia hell for deciding to free Discord, I think it’s rather unfair that in an episode where the reality-threatening danger was directly created by Luna, in an episode where Luna herself refuses to seek her sisters help or guidance, Celestia is still somehow the biggest criticism.

Posted 13 days ago Report

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kleptomage

I agree that Celestia being absent in Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep was a problem with the episode. Another problem was that Luna’s guilt and self-loathing seemed exaggerated, because if we look strictly at the events shown, Luna didn’t really do much harm, certainly not enough to warrant creating the tantabus to torture herself. Her rebellion amounted to a brief fight with her sister, an unusually long night, and inconveniencing the Mane Six. It’s not like she killed anyone.

I enjoyed Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep. It’s visually spectacular. But the episode’s premise is flawed. Also, it was the kind of Luna episode that should have aired in an earlier season.

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Dragonpone

Moderator

Badge Dragon

@kleptomage
The fact that she was ultimately stopped means none of her actions or intentions were much of an issue? She had every intention of forcing eternal night, and in the timeline where she succeeds, does indeed become a dictator and banishes Celestia (all just because she was feeling jealous).

Mind, I’m not necessarily saying I disagree with this view in this friendship-themed children’s show, I just want some consistency; If her not causing any long-term damage is fine, the same should apply to every one, including the results of Celestia’s mistakes.

I like Celestia and Luna, but I will say it’s pretty annoying how all of Luna’s faults, including the two times she directly caused a major threat to Equestria with her own two hooves (and for such a minor reason, I will never understand how Starlight’s disproportionate motivation is treated as such an outlier when you can list the number of major villains in this franchise with aspirations comparable to their motivations on a hand that’s been through a wood-chipper), are brushed aside as minor inconveniences when everything Celestia does is put under such heavy scrutiny.

Posted 13 days ago Report

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Latecomer

@kleptomage
Probably a mix of “what could have happened”, the thousand years of pain she caused her sister, abandoning anyone in that time who cared about her, and possibly offscreen villany. (For instance, in my headcanon Nightmare Moon was the form Luna took in the dream realm lon before she assumed it in reality - and the dreams she brought are why Equestria remembers her as a foal-gobbling boogeymare rather than for the extended night thing.

And it felt like a very Season Five episode, if you know what I mean?

Posted 13 days ago Report

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DerpyFast

[…] I think it’s rather unfair that in an episode where the reality-threatening danger was directly created by Luna, in an episode where Luna herself refuses to seek her sisters help or guidance, Celestia is still somehow the biggest criticism.

Well, you start with the fact that Celestia wasn’t in the episode, and work backwards. Luna doesn’t seek Celestia’s help or guidance. Why?

medium

(It’s because up to this point, Celestia has been useless in a crisis and consistently made bad decisions, and because her relationship with Luna hadn’t been properly fleshed out.)

After how Celestia is characterized in Twilight’s Kingdom, including her in this episode would have been completely tone-deaf. Like, what would Celestia even say? “Just get Twilight to fix it and then never think about it again. Works for me!” This is an episode about taking responsibility, and Celestia lives in a world where you don’t have to do that. Her not being in this episode is yet another symptom of how she’s written.

Which brings me to:

Another problem was that Luna’s guilt and self-loathing seemed exaggerated, because if we look strictly at the events shown, Luna didn’t really do much harm, certainly not enough to warrant creating the tantabus to torture herself.

if we look strictly at the events shown

And there’s your problem. You have to look at what the events mean to the character. Luna and her sister were supposed to maintain harmony. Instead, Luna lost control. In a fit of anger, she attacked her own sister and destroyed the castle they built together. For 1,000 years, Equestria was down an alicorn, and her sister was forced to rule alone.

The reason that Luna is such a compelling character is that she takes responsibility for her actions. And her emotional journey is about the difference between constructive and non-constructive ways of doing that.

[…] everything Celestia does is put under such heavy scrutiny.

We hold good to higher standards. That’s what makes it “good”. And we expect the “Big Good” to be a voice of reason and know better.

I think Starlight’s backstory is a lesson in how “no reason” is better than “a bad reason”.

Posted 12 days ago Report

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Background Pony #F622

So I take it the moral of the story is Luna must never be criticized or hated, and if you dare speak ill of her or just dislike her then you’ve pretty much signed your will. But it’s always open season for Celestia.

Posted 12 days ago Report
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Jonny Manz

I am who I am

Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep? Is overrated (lol jk)

But for my money, I put, at the very least, both Amending Fences and Crusaders of the Lost Mark ahead of it, as far as season 5 episodes go. The former, I’m guessing, is at least partially due to the fact that I’m a much bigger Twilight fan than a Luna fan, so I find Twilight dealing with her past and trying to make amends with Moondancer more compelling than Luna’s self-flagellation for her past. For the latter, it might be partially due to the fact that, again, I love the CMC slightly more than Luna, but I think it’s more due to the fact that it was a musical episode, where all the music (not just the songs) was done by Daniel Ingram, and I absolutely loved all 4 of those. Plus, the whole cutie mark thing was super emotional - adding to that was that the night before, I literally dreamed they would get their cutie marks, then scolded myself when I awoke for getting my hopes up over something that wouldn’t happen.

I think it also has to do with the fact that Luna was so popular (and in a certain sense, still is) that she seemed to suck the oxygen away from anyone else, and I bristled at that sort of thing, especially back then. (Though I still loved her and Celestia’s cameo as fillies in Sunny Side Up)

Posted 12 days ago Report
Edited 12 days ago because: Add-on

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Dragonpone

Moderator

Badge Dragon

@Dragonpone
After how Celestia is characterized in Twilight’s Kingdom, including her in this episode would have been completely tone-deaf. Like, what would Celestia even say? “Just get Twilight to fix it and then never think about it again. Works for me!” This is an episode about taking responsibility, and Celestia lives in a world where you don’t have to do that. Her not being in this episode is yet another symptom of how she’s written.

I mean you can’t have it both ways, she can’t be both a useless waste whose inclusion would be tone-deaf (and only in a meta sense, the characters obviously don’t feel that way in-story) while also being a player whose lack of appearance is a criticism that reflects poorly on her, since she’s apparently supposed to show up to give Luna the forgiveness she already unquestioningly gave her in episode 2 of the series.

How is she even supposed to win here? Celestia shows up, you say that it’s tone-deaf, and she regurgitates the same thing she already said to Luna because I guess she just needed to hear it twice?

@Dragonpone
We hold good to higher standards. That’s what makes it “good”. And we expect the “Big Good” to be a voice of reason and know better.

Luna was good to start with, then she overreacted, turned evil, and turned good again. Does she lose the ability to be held to any kind of standard because she used to be a villain? Why would turning evil make you less deserving of criticism?
Besides which, the Tantabus ordeal happened after her turn to good.

I think Starlight’s backstory is a lesson in how “no reason” is better than “a bad reason”.

A “bad reason” is exactly what Luna had as well:
Ponies are sleeping during my night → cause Eternal night, turn evil when my sister asks me to lower it

I really hope that’s not considered a sensible reaction to envy.

Posted 12 days ago Report

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Tiger beetle

Send massage.

@kleptomage
I mean, almost killing Celestia, striking those guards, and several attempts at harming the Mane 6 are already pretty bad. We downplay it, because fiction, but I could understand why Luna might feel guilt about that, even if it is rather extreme.

My headcanon has always been that the widespread suffering she blames herself for is the way she deprived Equestria of a dream guardian. Luna’s the only pony capable of travelling from dream to dream, the only one with the opportunity of working in the intimate setting of the Dreamscape. And for 1000 years she wasn’t there for them. All the ponies that could’ve used her help with their traumas, and emotions, and she wasn’t there. Because of herself. I can see the guilt coming from that being immense. It’s all Nightmare Moon’s fault, but NMM is part of Luna, not a separate entity she can throw the blame onto (it’s also why I dislike the idea of Luna’s corruption being caused by an external force, and why I feel like the Tantabus being a conscious creation is far stronger from a narrative perspective).

With that episode having such focus on Luna’s dream powers it really does feel an angle worth exploring. And yeah, Celestia should’ve been involved as well.

Posted 12 days ago Report
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